Stop Paying to Solve the Same Problem

Episode summary

Most unions replace their membership system the same way. Someone spends a year writing down everything the union does, a custom build follows, and a few years later the system ages out and the cycle starts again. Chris Walton has a blunter view than most. “Whatever you do, never do a custom build from scratch.”

Chris has been a union official for forty years and founded the ACTU’s Union Innovation Hub. More than 45 unions now take part, roughly two thirds of the Australian union movement by his count. In his second visit to the show he walks Riley through what those implementations taught him.

He starts with why unions wait so long. Leaders are busy, and they’ve heard the horror stories about projects that take years and still don’t get used. Then he lays out the options: an off-the-shelf product, a full custom build, or a general platform that is “like buying a really good bit of land with all the pipes.” The Hub’s answer is a shared starting point that covers most of what every union does, so each union can spend its time and budget on the part that really is unique, and keep getting improvements from a user group long after go-live.

The conversation gets practical from there. Chris explains why he skips the long requirements phase and puts staff in front of a working system with their own data, and he tells a story about a basketball court and a BlackBerry. He names the three things that still sink projects: data, the person running the project day to day, and change management. He also covers checkoff, AI, and what he hopes North American unions bring to the Hub. His advice for next week is simple. Think about what your union wants to do better, then go and see a real system.

In this episode

• Why unions put the decision off. Busy leaders, real horror stories, and the worry that a new system will need money poured in forever just to keep up.
• Never build from scratch. Chris compares the three usual routes: a product you can’t shape, a custom build, and a general platform where “you still gotta build the thing.”
• Start from the 90 percent. Most of what a union does is the same across unions. Start there, configure it, and save the budget for the part that’s actually yours.
• Staying unique inside a shared model. How unions add their own pieces without blocking the quarterly upgrades everyone else gets.
• Skip the year of requirements. Get your data in early, hand staff the keys within weeks, and let them find the gaps in a system they can actually use.
• What still goes wrong. Messy data, no one with time to run the project day to day, and change that starts too late. Plus super users and why the old data doesn’t all need to move house.
• Go-live is the starting line. Checkoff under pressure, AI that can personalize member journeys and portals, and why sharing skills and case studies matters as much as the tech.
• What to do next week. Think about what your union wants to do better, then see a real system with real data.

Hosts & Guests

Riley Miller – Host

Host of The Modern Membership Org and a consultant at Bursting Silver, where he helps associations, unions, and regulatory bodies modernize the systems behind their missions.

Chris Walton – Guest

Director of Union Innovation and Founder of Union Innovation Hub (ACTU) and a union official for forty years. Chris set up the Hub about six years ago so unions could modernize faster and at lower cost by working together. More than 45 unions now take part, about two thirds of the Australian union movement, with others in New Zealand, the UK and Ireland, and the first in North America. This is his second time on the show, after Ep 13.

Resources

• Ep 13: No New Principles, Just New Tools: Chris’s first episode, on engagement scoring, member journeys and buying technology as a movement.
• Union Innovation Hub resources: the Hub’s open library of guides, which Chris mentions sharing with BSI.
• Guide to Organising and Campaigning With Digital Tools (Union Innovation Hub).
• Ep 10: Des Hymers on data and migration: Riley calls back to it at 23:34.
• See Union Suite for iMIS in action: Chris’s advice is to watch a real demo with real data. Book one with Bursting Silver.
• Come on the show — [email protected], or Riley directly at [email protected]

About Bursting Silver

Bursting Silver is a fully remote consultancy specializing in modern CRM, iMIS, and AI solutions for membership organizations across North America. We’re a 3-time Great Place to Work Certified company that helps associations, unions, and regulatory bodies modernize legacy systems, improve data quality, and deliver better experiences for staff, members, and registrants.

Our unique ability is finding the simplicity in the complex.

Learn more about Bursting Silver

The Modern Membership Org Podcast

Full Transcript

Chris Walton (0:00) The traditional approach is, as I said earlier, spend the next year writing out what the union does. Don’t do that. Certainly have a think about don’t think about technology, think about what you want your union to be able to do better. Focus on the things you want to do and then get some insight in what tools are around to help you achieve that.

Riley Miller (0:52) Hello again and welcome back to the Modern Membership Org podcast. My name’s Riley with Bursting Silver, and we are joined again by a repeat member, an expert in his own right, Chris Walton, the founder of the ACTU’s Union Innovation Hub, phoning in from Australia, where we’re going to be further unpacking how North American unions can borrow from the playbook that gets members off the sidelines behind their campaigns. And we’re going to be diving into some of the tricks of the trade learned by the unions down under and why buying technology as a movement beats going at it alone. Chris, welcome back to the podcast. How you doing?

Chris Walton (1:27) Yeah, good, Riley. I’ve been called an expert now. If you get old enough you’re gonna be called anything, I think.

Riley Miller (1:32) The seniority. I think you have plenty of things that we’re gonna be talking about today that would earn that title for sure. So with getting things started and dive diving right into it, for those that don’t know you, they might not have checked out episode thirteen, but maybe give you a chance here to introduce yourself and let people know where you stand.

Chris Walton (1:52) Yeah, g’day everyone. I’m just an old union official forty years. And about six years ago I came to a view that digital wasn’t going away and we started through the ACTU, which is like the CLC and ACTU our national federation. We got together and decided we’d try and help unions get there a bit faster and at lower costs. So we set up the Union Innovation Hub. I’d tried a lot of these techniques in my old union and they seemed to work and thought maybe we should get together and use a collective approach to try to improve what we do. It took off and now we’ve got about forty-five, about two-thirds of the Australian Union movement are participating in our hub. And now we’ve got unions in UK, Ireland, actually one in Canada, implemented Canada and US, lots in New Zealand. So being a collective model, we’re taking it around the world.

Riley Miller (2:50) Yeah, absolutely. And you’ve seen now forty-five unions, even just down in Australia, with the new membership system and moving into it. But with the union space as well is pretty unique where they tend to wait or work with what they have while they have it. What is that tipping point that usually help helps a union decide we can’t keep doing what we’re doing with what we have?

Chris Walton (3:13) Yeah, interesting query. I’m thinking back over the forty five we implement, always a little different. Usually there’s a frustration with the current system, sole person risk. The mob they’re with’s been sold and resold. There’s only a couple of people that are really supporting the system. It might have been good fifteen, ten years ago, but hasn’t kept up. Doesn’t allow you do stuff in the field on the road. Isn’t mobile first friendly and is getting very difficult to change and but more importantly a lot of unions realize that they don’t need just a membership system to process the fees. That’s fundamental. They need a modern system that enables them to improve their organizing, their campaigning, their be able to make data sensible decisions about where they go in the future, to be able to improve member engagement. Not and of course back end efficiency, but to do everything we do in unions better. They union leaders know digital is critical. They know the expectations of members with personalisation, with the experience members have in engaging with their union.

Riley Miller (4:24) Yeah, I think you mentioned it in the last episode as well, but the fundamentals are there in terms of what it takes to operate. But having tools helps accelerate just that mission or the your workspace that you’re working in. And it sounds like a lot of the times these stewards or union staff members are understanding there’s a limitation in being able to drive home the work that they need to do. It seems almost obvious, but why do you think unions are putting the decision off for so long?

Chris Walton (4:56) Yeah, and that’s an important point. The fundamentals of unionism don’t change as I explained last time, but everything we do, we ask, can digital make it more efficient or effective? And there’s it’s tools, new tools that we use. But a lot of unions put it off. A, they’re very busy, you know, the day job of a union leader is crazy. But importantly, they’ve also heard horror stories. About new implementations taking years and costing millions. And then when it’s finished it’s not really that much better or the staff aren’t even use utilising it or embracing it. So they’ve heard horror stories and there are a lot of horror stories. So they’re put off to get in it, you know, your stewardship of your union and the union’s funds are very important. And although in one side they know that digital is critical, although they need to see that, I think. They need to see what you can do with digital and understand it’s not some new newfangled thing. But they also need to have a pathway to get there that’s not going to burn lots of members’ money and it’s gonna get a good outcome. And the other thing is even if they get an outcome the technology’s moving so quickly, are they in a w it are they then gonna have to keep pouring money in to keep up to date? So I think, you know, there’s a lot of good reasons why unions think twice. And they need the time and the focus and the support, I think, to make the call. In Australia two thirds of unions have moved in a c in a few years. So it can happen. But they needed the right model, they needed the support to get there.

Riley Miller (6:38) Yeah. And also I think it’s it helps to understand where other unions are moving towards as well, as opposed to feeling like you have to reinvent the wheel. I think a lot it before having a union movement, it when you were doing an upgrade to your system, it almost felt like you had to reinvent the wheel, look at the processes that you’re doing, understand what’s broken, and they can be arduous and expensive. You’ve mentioned before that. Starting from scratch is madness. So when you have union leaders facing the new system question and trying to understand is there a system out there that can support their needs, often than not, they look at these almost out of the box systems, but they’re never always there. They have some customization that needs to happen. When does it make sense to look at customized approaches versus straight out of the box or anywhere in the middle.

Chris Walton (7:35) Yeah. Look, if I say anything to a union leader, whatever you do, never do a custom build from scratch. Like it is it is seriously nuts. That’s a good way to pour a lot of money in. There are options for union leaders. They can go to a product approach that at least meets many of their needs, but then they’ve got to be with the right product and the mob is gonna be keep investing and they’re relying on the owner of that product to keep investing and keep ahead. I mean, some unions were on quite good products years ago, but they just didn’t keep up and there’s been sales and at of to other companies. They can do a full custom, as I said, man. They can go on to a sort of a what we call a platform build like a Salesforce or a Dynamics. Which is a good starting point. But it’s like buying a really good bit of land with all the pipes and everything in there and you can connect up, but you still gotta build the thing. And those things don’t have the basics unions need in them, like the way we do process payroll checkoff, for example. They don’t under they don’t have built in there that we have steward structures that, you know, the way our employers have workplaces, it all gotta be a lot of the basics that unions use have to be built. And the trouble with what seems like a platform that’s used by many is whoever builds that, that’s effectively proprietary to the mob that builds it. Allegedly you can bring someone else in, but it’s an it’s it’s like reading hieroglyphics. So it is there are options. I mean our option is a bit of both where we are a starting point. Like there are things that are unique in unions. But they’re the whatever five percent or the ten can’t we do the ninety, ninety-five percent as a starting point and then have the money and if that’s already built and you don’t charge for what’s every already built, you’ve got then some capacity in your implementation to do you your unique stuff. So we our model is let’s get that unique stuff, let’s not have forty-five unions reinvent the wheel, and then those unions can firstly configure that system to make it unique for them. But then if they do need any customizations, any real unique parts, you can do it. On iMIS it is both a product and a platform and then our Union Suite on iMIS does the 95% and then put the money into getting that right and into in into your unique stuff. But importantly at the day you finish we’ve got a user group that keeps enhancing that and rolling out improvements. So there’s a risk in not getting there at day one, but there’s a even bigger risk in not being where it needs to be in five or ten years.

Riley Miller (10:31) Yeah, I there’s a couple of things there. I think one is looking at the fundamental approach, we talked about having tools to be able to deliver that better, and looking for a system that addresses the fundamentals, and that 95% that you meant, instead of looking to retrofit a system to rebuild those tools that are already there and available somewhere else. So I think that’s a really good point. And then for a user group as well,

Chris Walton (10:53) Gonna cost more obviously if you’re building it the if you’re building it from the ground up with a whole lot of things the unions need that aren’t there, it’s clearly going to be very expensive and risky. But at the same time you wanna have it configured that’s so it’s unique for you, no trouble. And if you genuinely do have something that’s unique, you do want to have the option to customize. And not wait in a queue for that to be done. So that’s our model. That’s what we’ve tried to achieve, is the best of all worlds there, as well as the ongoing capacity to do improvements. I think, you know, and that’s why two thirds of unions jumped on board, right? In it ’cause unions don’t move quickly, let’s be honest. So why in Australia there’s so many are now overseas? It’s the model. It’s nothing brilliant we’re doing. It’s just so s it’s so obvious a model that it hadn’t been done.

Riley Miller (11:47) Well when we say unions also have their unique elements,

Chris Walton (11:47) It’s collective model, it’s well

Riley Miller (11:50) When they’re looking at the unique pieces for those forty five, how after these implementations do they still differentiate or who do they still have that unique and we’re different stance even after adopting a collective model?

Chris Walton (12:03) It’s a really good question. What we’ve done is to ensure that the core can be constantly upgraded and we roll out improvements each quarter, at least. And then if a union does something unique that’s really good, we ask, can we put that into the core for everyone? And pretty much all unions agree. So a union might be beavering away doing something good. We’re working away ’cause we’ve got so many unions working away doing improvements and rolling them out at no cost to unions every quarter. Or a union might choose to have something built that’s unique for them. We just make sure that’s done in a way where it doesn’t stop the upgrade of the core. So it’s it sits there and it’s still fine, but we’re still able to improve the core without affecting their capacity for something unique. It works well. And that’s I think the model that people need. I don’t think they want just a product that sits there and they can’t configure and make unique for themselves or they can’t add anything unique. And so that’s the model we’ve created, something that achieves the benefits of a platform and the benefits of a of a product and in combination allows the union to get the ongoing improvements but also have s have anything genuinely unique for them, is possible.

Riley Miller (13:26) Right. And so with I wanna take maybe from a perspective of a union leader who’s looking at going through implementation or a modernization approach. They’re they’re starting a project and they’re looking at this as a blank sheet of paper. They’re talking to their staff about asking them what do we need to improve, what would help you do your job more effectively or help us represent our members. What would you recommend to unions in that position to start looking for, not only in a system, but also when they’re talking to their teams and taking that feedback and streamlining it?

Chris Walton (14:02) Yeah, well look, let me be controversial. We’ve disrupted the normal approach, right? I we did the same. When we started, we had someone wander out there with a bit of you know, suppose hope they used a computer, but write down everything the union does. You know, you have members or they have cases. Really, cases, and they have for fees, wow, and the employer sends the remittance from the checkoff and you have to match that and you have to reconcile that and da. Wow. So I read a few of these and boy they were the same. The night the 90 odd percent are the same. So it’s the greatest con of all time, the consultancy sit there and write out all the so maybe let’s pay to, you know, whatever, 200 bucks an hour to sit there and tell us what the union is. I mean it’s the old joke, lend us the watch and we’ll tell you the time. So how about we disrupt that? If the ninety odd percent’s the same and the union chooses that they see the demo of the system and you choose that, the union says that and so maybe they’re only eighty-five or they’re not or they’re a hundred. But the union has a good look. And let’s focus on the gaps. If that’s already built, and we don’t want to char we’re not for profit, but we don’t want to charge for what’s already built. We only exist to help unions get ahead, then let’s just focus on the gaps. So what we throw it on its head we say to the union, look, let’s there’s a bit of basics we do about your member types, your fees, and all that jazz and your data structure. I won’t bore you with detail, but we get to a data template really early, get the first lot of data in into Union Suite, and hopefully within a month, here’s the keys, your logins where you can go and utilize it. Go and actually with your data in. And then let’s identify even more the gaps or the tweaks that are required. So it’s quite a radical switch. But it works really well. I mean I don’t know if this analogy helps, but I’m showing my age. I used to have a member of BlackBerry I thought it was very flash a BlackBerry phone. Actually I go back to when I did one of those bricks. Anyway, that’s a long story. I was actually at a basketball game, would you believe? Yeah, and they threw the balls into the crowd and two balls had shooter on it. So fifteen thousand people. Somehow this ball lands in my lap and I had to go down onto the onto the basketball court and it was me and this kid who was half my size, you know, a and a quarter of my age. And in front of fifteen thousand people we had to shoot I didn’t know what the prize was, we had to shoot. So he shot the first ball in. I spent forever I f hadn’t thrown a ball for twenty years. And then he ran to the other end had to shoot again and his balls were rolling around the ring, just falling out, the crowd zooing and arring and then I eventually get mine in go down and I throw it in and I had fifteen thousand people boomy. But I won a phone. Now the phone was about this thick, and I told my mates well what I won’t really was a phone bell and I couldn’t I think there’s a I couldn’t even ring anyone back then. No one else had a thing. Anyway, that’s an aside. My point is if I got in a room at that point with that phone and you got me to design a better phone, I don’t think I would have come up with a smartphone or an iPhone. But if you give me the iPhone you know, a best practice thing or a modern smartphone, I can maybe think of ways it could be better. So I don’t know if that analogy had any made any sense at all, other than showing that I was cruel to young people on a basketball court. But the point is our disruptive approach is let’s give the union staff a best practice case management system that’s been worked on, worked on, worked on by 40 odd unions. And then let them use it with their data in. And then they then come up with their own, which is no trouble, configure with their own case types, etc. And they may have other suggestions. And that’s our disrupted approach. Focus on the gaps, get them up and running with something that’s built and designed by unions. Now each union needs to look at it and say, is it going to meet 89% of our needs? That’s of course the first point.

Riley Miller (18:24) Yeah, I think that reminds me of a similar metaphor, which was the Henry Ford line and not the paraphrase, but if I asked people what they wanted, they say a better horse or something along those lines.

Chris Walton (18:35) Yeah, that great line, yeah. We found we found in the traditional gap thing two things happen. One they designed the union as is or as was ten years ago, and so you spend a lot of money creating a system that is what the union has been. Or they sort of sometimes, you know, sh design something to go to the Mars. You know, and blue sky at to the extreme, right? It’s very odd. It’s very interesting behaviour. Whereas the model I’ve described is really practical. Like people get in there and go, yeah, I really like that. And they start thinking how I might use it because the battle isn’t just getting a system, it’s getting people to use it. So the process of them using it and coming up with suggestions is part of the change process. And then they get best practice. It might be a mi a significant leap ahead from what they’ve had is what we experience for most unions. And that’s great.

Riley Miller (19:29) Yeah, that’s a good payoff. And I mean, we’ve talked about better starting points, taking those fundamentals and being able to identify then the unique pieces that stand out above and beyond that. But I think then there’s also the examples where implementations can go wrong and that where some implementations face challenges as everybody does as they’re going through change management and speaking with their teams. And so based on your experience, what are some examples maybe that you think union leaders should keep in mind in order to help get those things over the line, even in the cases where they have that ramp up or that eighty percent starting.

Chris Walton (20:04) Yeah, yeah. I mean l so the union leaders n has seen a demo or has seen what could be done and it or is frustrated with their current system and you know, every little chain change the font by some character charges them a fortune. We laugh, but you know, it’s the real world. So what does the union do? W well things still can go wrong even with our model and the main one’s data. So the state of the data is really important. Now we try to get give a template and work with the and some systems are easier to get the old data out than others. But that’s a key point and cleaning up the data is always worthwhile. So I’ve seen a union do the data cut in under two weeks and I’ve seen a union take nine months. Horror story.

Riley Miller (20:53) Sounds about right.

Chris Walton (20:54) So, you know, there’s there’s I won’t bore you now, but there’s tricks of the trade with that, it’s not that hard. I mean we you know, I had one literally last week. And when we got in and shared screens, we got there pretty quick. And, you know, our team’s got this sort of skill it’s really just Excel skills really, but you need to work with someone in the union who knows the data and when you move house, you don’t always bring everything with you. Like let’s make some calls about did we do we really need that data from thirty years ago over. So data’s a big one. And then having someone on the project with time who you call it project manager, but let’s not use too much jargon. Someone who knows how the union works and can get decisions out of people and can keep things moving. So you’ll have the project sponsor being the union leader, but someone who’s running day to day working with us and able to connect with the different teams and get things moving. I think that role is really, really important. And then the final one I’ve mentioned before is let’s make sure we do it in a way where at the end people don’t go, well, that’s interesting and we’ll do what we’ve done in the past. So the change management, I mean you can do a whole session on change management, but the process you use during it and the importance the union leader sees in how digital isn’t some new way of doing unions, but a way we’re gonna work and be more effective ’cause we wanna have a stronger union. They’re the three things I’d say I could go on, but I think, yeah, the data, the right person who’s doing the linchpin role within the union during the project and liaising with the implementer, relate liaising with the Bursting Silver, ’cause we don’t implement our partners Bursting Silver in North America ’cause they’re super experienced, got a big team and are local and in the time zone. And then the final thing is the that we use it we start the change process from the beginning, that the leaders driving it and talking about why it’s important and that people are involved as I described earlier and by having involvement and helping design it. They have a more ownership and are g are likely to use it. And we build up the concept of super users during the project who have, you know, they’re not expected to train their colleagues, but they’re the ones more involved who can lean over and help people once we’re once we’re live. Went live last weekend actually with the nurses in Western Australia. So had another one. Yeah, it’s it’s really so I should say forty six now, should I? Anyway.

Riley Miller (23:34) Yeah, I guess we gotta update that number. I think that’s good too though when it comes to empowerment because it not only are you kind of when staff are experiencing a change in the system, it’s like you’re walking into a new office and somebody’s moved your desk. You don’t know where your stapler is or you don’t know where your pens are. So having those sessions I think are incredibly important, at least in terms of the work that we’ve done with Bursting Silver from a change management standpoint. Including the team and informing them on those steps is huge. And then the training the trainer as well is a big empowerment. I think the best way to learn in life is to teach and kind of re-educate your peers as well. That codifies at least in my own processes when I was training and how to use the system. And then for data as well this kind of calls back to the episode I had Des on. He’s our solution architect. And of course he was speaking on data. He mentioned that as much as everybody says that they have good data, if they think they have good data, they still will have bad data in parts of their system. It’s impossible to have good address data, for example. It’s always a mess. And especially if you’re trying to move house, it never comes over clean. And so that’s just a really good example exercise and cleaning out your closet. You have union leaders too are sitting on systems that have probably been around for years. And so that builds up and it’s a it’s a cleanse. You get the Marie Kondo, you think your data and you kinda throw it out in the trash. It’s a good way to move things aside that you’re always questioning why were they there anyways.

Chris Walton (25:06) Riley, I reckon you should interview yourself for the next podcast. That was I couldn’t add anything to what you said on those two items.

Riley Miller (25:13) No notes. Yeah. Well, I think too, like we’ve worked with a lot of clients when they’ve changed their systems. And I think it’s important not to look at it as a an IT project, but I think you have staff that have gone through the testing and they’re excited to get in the system. And when they look at Go Live, they kind of see that as the light at the end of the tunnel, as the finish line. It you’ve mentioned before that it’s more of a starting line, especially coming from the perspective of a collective approach, you see people dive into the system and see what’s possible. When you mention it’s a starting line, what do you see from the forty six now that have jumped into their systems?

Chris Walton (25:53) Yeah, it just there’s going to be ongoing change and improvement. Technology’s moving so rapidly. And some of the environment in which we operate in is moving rapidly, you know. In US there’s some states that have banned effectively written got rid of checkoff, dues checkoff. So bankrupt, you know, stroke of an administrative pen of a governor. Bankrupt the unions overnight, as happened in Australia many years ago. We had a state premier who on Christmas Eve just got rid of for public sector unions nurses, et cetera.

Riley Miller (26:25) Merry Christmas.

Chris Walton (26:26) Merry Christmas. And so you might suddenly have to collect fees dues directly from members. So that’s a reactive thing but pretty important. But on the positive, I mean with AI, and we know there’s challenges with AI for its impact on our members. Well, that means we need to be even more effective and use the best aspects of AI to improve how we operate as unions. Now I could bore you at length, but whether it be journeys, onboarding journeys and new members getting them more engaged, a member portal where what they see is unique to them and automatically adapts for their industry or occupation, makes it personal. You know, through to some tools for organizers so that they you know can build a easier builder with integrated tools, build a potential member list and nurture them through to membership, through to better support of should I could rant on. It’s never ending. You know, or we have a Teams meeting, well we want to know who attended that. Well shouldn’t we have an integration? Shouldn’t we be able to do that? How do we improve our case management? It never it should never end. That’s the point. Whereas any other model that you know, there’s there’s options for unions other than our model. But I don’t think any of those other options have what we have, which is an ongoing user group that is sharing those things usually at no cost. So whatever the future improvements require. So are we building it on a thing that keeps improving, like iMIS which is continually upgraded for decades? And then is the Union Suite, the stuff I mentioned, the ninety percent, in you know, able to do QR code check-ins and meetings, da. Is it continually improving? And do we need, you know, a budget of a hundred thousand a year sitting there on top of our implementation costs just to keep moving? No. Every other model you require this huge ongoing expenditure. And I don’t think that’s sustainable for most unions. We need a better way, a collective way. Don’t let it get on, as I joked before. Like the union way, where we are able to keep improving. Because as I said, the biggest risk isn’t well, there’s a big risk in getting a new system that meets what your needs and modern needs are, and getting there and getting there in a cost and time effective way. But there’s actually a bigger risk, and that is where will that system be in five or ten years? So that’s why we came up with the hub model, non profit hub model collective model.

Riley Miller (28:59) Yeah, I think it’s important to always look at continuing to improve as well. As you mentioned with AI, I think technology is moving in a way where being able to adapt to new ideas is becoming more readily available. That also continues to improve processes. If you’re being able to be go to conferences, you can learn from other teams that are doing things differently. Having the ability to also adapt your system to do improve as well just imp improves your own workspace and your own

Chris Walton (29:27) Yeah, I left out a key

Riley Miller (29:27) Flow.

Chris Walton (29:29) Point now you’ve now you mentioned that. I mean it’s not just the tech improving, it’s the use of the tech. So our hub group gets together and shares guides, best practice training, etcetera. So we get a union do a case study on how they’ve used this, then the other union goes, that might help us, blah. So that ongoing user group not only sharing improvements to tech, as you point out, tech’s just part of it, it’s also skills and culture. And ideas. So if we’ve got the tech moving, we also need the sharing of the ideas, the case studies, and having the right culture where we have a go. And I think the hub model allows for that. Union sharing best practice as well as sharing improvements to the tech. And I think culturally being a union group that’s seeing those things is helping a union leader who’s got the hardest job on earth to see things that another union’s doing or whatever and having a chance, having the tech there that will help them and then being able to drive improvements. Because the union leader wants to have a stronger, more effective union that’s achieving more for members and is growing. As do the union staff. The model is trying to give them the wherewithal to do that. If we’ve got the right leader who’s serious about taking their union further, and I think most leaders do, then we’ve got to help and support them getting there with both the tech but also the case studies, the how tos, the sharing of improvements, etcetera. Really good point, Riley. It’s not just the tech.

Riley Miller (31:05) Yeah, definitely. And so I mean, now to expanding into North America, because you’ve you’ve got that big base down in Australia, what do you have any expectations or are you looking to be pleasantly surprised on maybe the new North American market bringing ideas to the hub that your current collective can kind of celebrate in?

Chris Walton (31:28) It’s a important point about moving the op making an option in North America. You know, we’re we’re of union for union. So it’s either good for North America unions, for Canadian US unions, or it isn’t. And we need to know that because if it isn’t the right option and model, then we need to know that and we don’t need the work. We’re only doing this because we believe the collective model will obviously more unions involve, that collective model gets ahead even faster. So we’re looking forward to learning from the Canadian and US unions. But the first key test is does this I rant on about the ninety percent base. Sure, let’s identify any gaps in the US and Canada. Really need that information, but needs people to assess whether what I’m saying is real. Now the unions I’ve spoken to so far and have seen it, and I’m talking to a huge union this week, they’re watching a demo and giving that feedback. So far, so good. Same in UK, Ireland, union’s a union, but we’ve just got to spot anything unique. Now, if it is unique and there’s a gap, we need to know, and of course the model allows that gap to be filled. So I’m I’m looking forward, but I’m also you know, I’m a bit of a I’ve been studying US and Canadian unions since the mid nineties actually. And you know, I l I love there’s some fascinating aspects. I mean, I used to say to Australian unions, they said, Why are you studying US unions when it has lower density? I said, Because their environment at times they’re getting blood out of a stone. It’s prob it’s you know, it’s some of the hardest place in the world to organize members. So I’ve learned a lot. I studied Canada because Canada has higher density than Australia, union membership, and I did a study through Canada many years ago. I think you always learn from each other if you’re willing to learn, if you listen. And I have no doubt that as we get closer and work more Canadians and US unions. They will have all sorts of ideas and the way they operate will give ideas for Australia and Australian unions will benefit. That’s I hundred percent sure Australians would benefit. Obviously the Canadian and US unions have to assess whether they will benefit and that’s an appropriate thing to do.

Riley Miller (34:01) You’re you’re really reinforcing that expert title I gave to you at the beginning of our conversation here.

Chris Walton (34:06) I think he just said I’m old.

Riley Miller (34:08) No, not in so many terms. No, never. Well, I mean, i in the spirit of passing on good I guess learning from this is a podcast and we’re we’re hoping that there’s some union leaders that are listening here today. If any of them are looking at migrating, moving, improving their systems, and they’re starting that conversation with their teams. Or maybe they’re looking at it in two or three years, what should they start doing next week to get that ball rolling or on the right foot?

Chris Walton (34:37) Yeah, it’s a great question. The traditional approach is, as I said earlier, spend the next year writing out what the union does. Don’t do that. Certainly have a think about don’t think about technology, think about what you want your union to be able to do better. Focus on the things you want to do and then get some insight in what you could what tools are around to help you achieve that. And the best way to do that is I see and I believe, someone once said. So you know, actually see it. 45 unions, unbelievably generous of them, most of them let us show other unions their system, obviously with all the appropriate privacy aspects. So see it. And look at some of the guides as well, which you know we share with BSI. Look at how unions are using it, how digitals are helping achieve growth, improving member engagement retention, etc. Think about what your union can do. And of course you’re going to think about how you run your operation and your back end and how you process your checkoff, etc. All those things are essential. How you do your case management. But look at it. Just have a look. Does it meet the eighty, ninety percent? And can you think about how your union could be better? So then I’ve got the dog in the background going to the door. Sorry about that.

Riley Miller (36:05) No, I’ll get now we know it’s an official podcast.

Chris Walton (36:07) It’s an official who’ve got the dog barking. So yeah, for the union leader, think about how your union wants to be stronger and more effective. As not only in your back-end process. Not you’re not please don’t just look for a membership system that processes your fees. Look for how tech how a system with the right culture and skills can take the union forward to be stronger. And then if you’ve got some of those ideas, get some insight into how other unions are using tech to be stronger and more effective and then see it. See a demo. Don’t spend hours with salespeople. Watch and see. Organise a demo through Bursting Silver or whatever. Obviously, you know, see other options, but just be open eyed about some of those other options as I went through earlier. And then let’s let’s make that check that test. Does the Walton rambling on about, you know, ninety percent is already there? Is it real? Have a look.

Riley Miller (37:09) Amen. Yeah. I think that i in terms of the assessment, I mean consultant myself, I think the best test is being able to see the system in action and being able to evaluate it with your team there kind of unfiltered, making sure that it’s it’s doing what it needs to do. Yeah.

Chris Walton (37:31) And look a lot of lot of mobs will show a demo. But it’s a mocked up demo. Like actually see a real a real one. You know, and you can talk to forty odd unions using it if you need to, right? So you know so yeah, I think that’s right, Riley. See it. And but be careful of mock ups. You know. With a platform thing for example, what are you seeing? You know, you see you know you know, we’re able to show see something real. And it’s not easy to achieve that, but it’s very important because everything, you know, everything looks good on a first look often. Not everything, but many things do. And then ask your really important questions, is the underpinning system being consistently upgraded and investing in and is sustainable? And all of those important due diligence tests that you need to do, which a lot of Australian unions did on iMIS. It’s very important to get the right thing. But even if you get the right base, now iMIS is better than a platform in that it’s a product. It’s designed in part for members. Well it is designed for members. Anything out of the box what we’re saying is we need to take even as good as iMIS is, we’ve taken that and done that layer above Union Suite with the ninety percent. And it’s the combination of the two that’s really important. That you’ve got a good base that does all the data protection stuff, et cetera, and can s and keeps upgrading. And you’ve got the Union Suite that’s meeting the ninety percent and is continually upgrading and sharing best practice. And allows you to do your own unique stuff if you need to, because it’s also the benefits of the platform. So I don’t know if I’ve confused people with that, but happy to have a chat to anyone. We don’t need the work. We just believe that there’s a way we can all get ahead a bit faster and a lower cost. And we have to if we’re gonna have the struct the unions workers need us to be into the future.

Riley Miller (39:39) Heck yeah. Well, I mean, I’m looking at the time too. A good segue here. It’s for those curious union leaders that are looking to kind of put some of this advice into motion. Where would they be able to reach out to you or where should they look for next steps?

Chris Walton (39:55) Yeah, there’s this bloke called Riley, I’d give him a hoy. He makes you look good on podcasts, by the way. Well maybe. We’ll see how well he edits. But I’d go to Bursting Silver, th they’ve got my details and they can arrange a demo. Don’t muck around, don’t see lots of pretty documents and that, just see a demo. So they just go to Riley can let you know. How to get in contact with Bursting Silver.

Riley Miller (40:19) We’ll we’ll put that in the show notes and make it nice and simple.

Chris Walton (40:23) And say, I’ll we’ll only proceed if Riley does a podcast with me and the future makes me look good. This is the union leader needs to say. I’d make that part of the deal. Don’t you will not proceed with Bursting Silver unless Riley does a podcast with

Riley Miller (40:37) Hey, I mean I would love to hear from more clients because then I can actually ask the boots on the ground side of it. How was their upgrade? How was the was everything Chris was saying true?

Chris Walton (40:47) Anyway, good fun.

Riley Miller (40:47) Well, Chris, thank you so much for jumping on the podcast. I really appreciate you making the time, especially it’s morning there. Right now it’s evening over here. I’ve got some turkey to run to, so I’ll leave you to it.

Chris Walton (40:59) Great to see you again. Bye Riley. See ya everyone.

Riley Miller (41:01) Good to see you as well. Take care, Chris. And that’s a wrap. Thanks again, Chris, for jumping on board. I know you’re in the future right now. It’s Tuesday and I’m Monday here, so we’ll let you get to it. But thank you for those that are tuning in too. If you learned a lot or you want to check out those show notes, those are down below. Burstingsilver.com/podcast. And all the episodes are there too. If you wanted to go check out our other conversations about change management associations, we’re on Spotify, YouTube, Apple, podcasts, all the platforms. If you are a subscriber and you want to give us a rating too, would love it. Appreciate that. It helps us get out to other like minded leaders who are looking at modernizing their systems as well. Until then, we’ll see you on the next episode. Have a great day.