Episode summary

Most union leaders walk into a modernization project bracing for the worst. They assume the data is a mess, the systems are beyond saving, and the whole thing is going to be painful. Kevin VanderKley has spent years deep in that work, most notably with Unite Here, and he keeps finding the opposite. The surface can feel chaotic, but underneath, most unions are in far better shape than they think.

In this episode, Kevin takes Riley through what’s really going on beneath that anxiety. The problem usually isn’t bad data, it’s fragmented data. The answers exist; they’re just scattered across people, locals, and systems that each solved the same problem a different way. He shares the simple litmus test he uses (can one person answer a leadership question?), the member-address example that shows why the same field means different things to membership administration and to an organizer doing a house visit, and why so much critical knowledge lives in people’s heads with no written path behind it.

From there it becomes a people project, not a technical one. Kevin lays out the work behind the work: building consensus around a clear North Star, sorting out data ownership and stewardship, setting governance rules before the hard conversations start, and keeping a risk register so problems get surfaced instead of buried. He explains how to tell when a transformation is quietly sliding into “just an install”, and why keeping the why visible is what holds executives and staff on the same page. This work isn’t about union identity. It’s about union enablement.

In this episode

• Why the surface chaos is misleading, most unions are in much better shape than leaders fear, and “our data is bad” is usually the wrong diagnosis
• Kevin’s path from the casino floor to corporate IT to union modernization — and what hospitality taught him about member relationships
• The consistent gap on national initiatives: locals run different systems and solve the same problem different ways, so any rollout starts with digging into how each local actually works
• Why processes live in people’s heads with no written path, institutional knowledge as the real risk, not the technology
• Bad data vs. fragmented data: the difference, and why fragmented data means your problems are solvable
  The one-person litmus test, if a single person can piece together the answer to a leadership question, your information isn’t bad, it’s scattered
• The member-address example: the same field means one thing to membership administration (mailing) and another to an organizer doing a house visit (where someone lives today), and why managing it collectively beats managing it separately
• The political (not partisan) side of change: non-technical projects surface questions people have never had to answer before
• The two things every transformation needs, consensus on a North Star (“what does done look like?”) and clear data ownership / stewardship across departments

Hosts & Guests

Riley Miller – Host

Sales and client success lead at Bursting Silver, helping membership organizations modernize iMIS, data, and AI workflows across North America.

Kevin Vanderkley – Guest

Chief Consulting Officer at Bursting Silver and a foundational part of the firm’s union modernization work. Kevin’s career began in hospitality and the casino industry, where he rose through management into corporate operations and then corporate IT over 20-plus years. That path led him to Bursting Silver and deep work with unions — most notably Unite Here, one of the largest hospitality-focused unions in the U.S. He specializes in translating the messy, people-driven data challenges unions face into clear, workable systems.

About Bursting Silver

Bursting Silver is a fully remote consultancy specializing in modern CRM, iMIS, and AI solutions for membership organizations across North America. We’re a 3-time Great Place to Work Certified company that helps associations, unions, and regulatory bodies modernize legacy systems, improve data quality, and deliver better experiences for staff, members, and registrants.

Our unique ability is finding the simplicity in the complex.

Learn more about Bursting Silver

The Modern Membership Org Podcast

Full Transcript

Kevin VanderKley (00:00)
Yeah, I think if there was concern about where you were on the continuum and how big of a challenge that the a project like this will be, ⁓ I would say first look internally, find that one person or that small group of people that can answer those questions for you. Have a coffee and sit down with them, find out what they know, where the information lives, what breaks when they’re away ⁓ is a big thing.

Kevin VanderKley (00:22)
it’ll tell you more about your data situation than any technical assessment will, I think.

Riley Miller (00:36)
Welcome back to the Modern Membership Board Podcast. It’s Riley here from Bursting Silver, and I am joined by none other than Kevin Vanderkley our chief consulting officer here at Bursting Silver. And he is a foundational piece for our union work and the meaningful developments that we’ve done on the modernization journey for unions that we work with. Kevin, welcome to the show. Thanks, Riley. Glad to be here. Thanks, Shucks Make me blush.

Kevin VanderKley (00:59)
Thanks, Riley. Glad to be here. Big fan.

Riley Miller (01:03)
Well big fan as well. I’m excited to have you on the podcast. You’re a busy guy and you have a lot of amazing work that you do. This is going to be an awesome opportunity to hear a lot about you deep in the trenches helping modernize some unions. So for those that are listening who haven’t had the pleasure of jumping on a call with you in the past, maybe give a a sense of who you are and and how you got to where you are. Sure, sure. So

Kevin VanderKley (01:23)
Sure, sure. So I started my career in hospitality in the casino industry and I moved up the management ranks and finally went over to corporate ⁓ corporate operations and then over to corporate IT, where I’ve been in management for about ⁓ 20 plus years. So the path that path generally led or eventually led me to bursting silver, where I started working closely with unions, ⁓ particularly a union called Unite Here.

Kevin VanderKley (01:50)
Which is a very large unit in the US that centers on hospitality. So my background is kind of a good mesh, just a different side of looking at the at the business. And that work really opened my eyes to the unique challenges unions face that most organizations simply don’t.

the stakes are different, the member relationships that they have are different. the data problems that sit underneath are honestly like unlike anything I’ve really had to solve before. And just helping work through those it was just a tremendous amount of satisfaction in working with them and helping them solve those problems.

Riley Miller (02:08)
Nice. Yeah, I was familiar with your Casino Royale days, but I had never made the connection between your work with Unite Here playing ⁓ into your experience in hospitality. So that’s really cool that that was your your jump off point. And obviously with Unite Here that is a a beast to say the least. So w when it comes to your union work, ⁓ obviously you dove headfirst into a large ⁓ modernization piece, but unions big and small.

have you had any experience when you’re helping them on their modernization journey that there’s something that they consistently don’t come up front with you or reveal as part of that process? Yeah, they they either don’t reveal, maybe not aware that it’s it’s a factor ⁓ or just

Kevin VanderKley (02:59)
Yeah, they they either don’t reveal, maybe not aware that it’s it’s a factor, or just might not think about it. But I I honestly in in when you take a step back, usually ⁓ folks think they’re in much messier situation than they are. ⁓ the surface can feel a little chaotic, but underneath when you kind of get to the nuts and bolts of things, ⁓ unions are generally not in that bad a shape.

Kevin VanderKley (03:19)
⁓ but pretty consistently there’s a gap. The national has ⁓ if it’s a nationally driven ⁓ initiative, ⁓ they have a sense of how the ⁓ locals work, process their data, have solved problems. And there’s a little, usually a little bit of ⁓diversity in terms of the way locals have ⁓ tackle challenges. ⁓ and so they’re right, they may be running different systems entirely.

Kevin VanderKley (03:41)
Or have solved problems different ways with ⁓ for the same job between locals. So that’s something that usually requires some digging into ⁓ when you ⁓ when you’re doing an initiative. ⁓ the other thing is is people really understand their processes very well. They under you could they’ll take you and walk you step by strip through all their work, but there’s typically no written path. So typically no written path.

Kevin VanderKley (04:05)
There might be a rule set, but when it comes to how somebody does their job, there is very little documentation. And that’s not untypical for a lot of businesses. ⁓But the the the institutional knowledge lives in people’s heads. And because of that, it it’s a it feels like a fairly daunting project because you really don’t have any tangible assets to go from. ⁓ it’s mostly ⁓ a people initiative, and those are always ⁓ always a bit challenging. So usually something’s broken, but it’s not very complicated to fix, and it’s really around a people initiative. ⁓ my job when I get engaged is to show folks how to solve those sorts of issues and who to talk to and once you document. and standardize the process, the downstream benefits are are significant.

Riley Miller (05:09)
can be like a minefield or even data in people’s heads and those those experts. So my experience working with unions, I’ve heard that they’re usually

There’s a consistent thread of our data is bad. A lot of these organizations also, ⁓ in other conversations I’ve had, have been around for a long time. So that can lead to large, large data sets that I don’t know, you dust the cobwebs off, so to speak, the digital cobwebs. Now, I know in your experience, yeah, you’ve managed to help change that perception. And ⁓ I want to hear from you what separates a union with genuinely bad data from one with good data? Yeah, that.

Kevin VanderKley (05:47)
Yeah, that

typically most unions don’t have bad data. Bad data is is something that’s caused from people just ⁓ having no plans of data capture and and some really poor processes on the get-go. Most of the time the data is very good for the time it was alive. ⁓ and then it it it might atrophy or it might be kind of hoarded in a bit of a silo.

Riley Miller (05:49)
Typically most unions don’t have bad data. Bad data is is something that’s caused

On the get-go, most of the time the data is very good for the time it was alive. ⁓ and then it it it might atrophy or it might be kind of hoarded in a bit of a silo.

Kevin VanderKley (06:10)
Typically, my rule of thumb is if there’s one person that you can talk to and they have a question around they have a business question as a union leader, and you can talk to that one person and they kind of look in the air and they go, Yeah,

Riley Miller (06:10)
typically, my rule of thumb is if there’s one person that you can talk to and they have a question around they have a business question as a union leader, and you can talk to that one person and they kind of look in the air and they

Kevin VanderKley (06:20)
okay, I think I can answer that. That means that your information is not bad. It means it’s fragmented. They have to go and piece together a lot of information from a lot of different people or a lot of different areas to answer a question.

Riley Miller (06:20)
Yeah, okay, I think I can answer that. That means that your information is not or bad. It means it’s fragmented. They have to go and piece together a lot of information from a lot of different people or a lot of different areas to answer

a question. ⁓ and so fragmented data is typically what ⁓ what I see as Yeah. Now so fragmented data, it’s ⁓ that’s a good word. What does that actually look like on the ground in action?

Kevin VanderKley (06:34)
⁓ and so fragmented data is typically what ⁓ what I see unions having.

Mm-hmm.

well, I I mean one good litmus test is the the person who has all the answers. If if you can find that person and you have a person like that, or even if even better if you have multiple people like that ⁓ in organizing or membership and in the different areas, ⁓ that’s a that that’s a really good thing. ⁓ it’s not going to solve your problem, but it tells you that your problems are solvable. ⁓ and the second thing is ⁓ is the same piece of data.

Riley Miller (06:50)
well I I mean one good litmus test is the the person who has all the answers. If you can find that person, you have a person like that, or even if you better have multiple people like that in organizing or membership and in the different areas. ⁓ that’s a that that’s a really good thing. it’s not gonna solve your problem, but it tells you that your problems are solvable. the second thing is ⁓ is the same piece

of data.

Kevin VanderKley (07:14)
Can mean something different to different groups. So ⁓ fragmented data, ⁓ I’ll use an example of an a member address. A member address for ⁓ membership administration is important because they, you know, that that’s how they measure a person, send the mail, et cetera, from the from the the union proper.

Riley Miller (07:15)
can mean something different to different groups. So fragmented data, I’ll use an example of a member address. A member address for membership administration is important because they, you know, that that’s how they measure a person, send the mail, et cetera, from the from the the union

proper. The the challenge that they have is they get that information periodically and it might be old from an employer and it might

Kevin VanderKley (07:37)
The challenge that they have is they get that information periodically, and it might be ⁓ old from an employer and it might be

date, you know, backdated. Where if you’re doing a house visit as an organizer ⁓ you need to know where that person lives today, not where they lived a month ago. And so same piece of data, but different needs around that data. And you you find that in different groups, they manage that data separately, where it’s a lot more powerful if you find a way to manage it collectively.

Riley Miller (07:45)
date you know backdated where if you’re doing a house visit as an you need to know where that person lives today, not where they lived a month ago. And so same piece of data, but different needs around that data. And you you find that in different groups, they manage that data separately, where it’s a lot more powerful if you find a way to manage it

collectively. Yeah. And I think too just when it comes to managing that, I the the one piece that you’ve you discussed

that resonated with me was how this data lives in people’s heads. And that made me think of the conversation I had with James too about change management and managing stakeholders. When it comes to unions, because they are so deep-seated and and they’ve been around for a long time, you have all those you know war vets that have been in it. It it there’s a process in which ⁓ it comes to managing their expectations too and ensuring that they they feel included, it but it can it can stir up some internal

friction points, so to speak, not just the technical ones. So when it comes to dealing with those expectations or those stakeholders or those sentiments, ⁓ what what have you seen in your union experience managing that? Yeah, th it it can surface some political challenges, and I don’t mean political in a bad way. It means non-technical projects ask questions that people haven’t had to answer before. ⁓

Kevin VanderKley (08:53)
Yeah, the yeah it can surface some political challenges, and I don’t mean political in a bad way. Means non technical projects ask questions that people haven’t had to answer before, ⁓ or

might not align on. And

Riley Miller (09:07)
And there’s two areas where you need to build this when you’re doing a transformation project. One is you’re building consensus. So you want to really want to have ⁓ kind of a North Star that you’re shooting for and about what done actually looks like, what business goal are you trying to achieve, and have agreement from all your different stakeholders that that’s the direction you want to move. and then secondly, it data ownership is a really important part.

Kevin VanderKley (09:07)
There there’s two areas where you need to build this when you’re doing a a transformation project. One is you you’re building consensus. So you wanna really wanna have ⁓ a kind of a North Star that you’re shooting for and about what done actually looks like, what business goal are you trying to achieve, and have agreement from all your different stakeholders that that’s the that’s the direction you wanna move. ⁓

And then secondly, data ownership is a really ⁓ important part. If ⁓ I I

mentioned earlier about organizing, having you know the member, the member address information is an example where they have different purposes for them. ⁓ a lot of times you have to have data ownership discussions and you’re data stewards. So that means you’re maintaining that data, but not just for your own purpose of your own department, but also for the purposes of other department and you’re finding that middle ground process that’ll work through that.

Riley Miller (09:43)
You have to have data ownership discussions and you’re data stewards so that means you’re maintaining that data but not just for your own purpose of your own

Kevin VanderKley (09:56)
⁓ and if folks are fairly entrenched, that can be a bit of a difficult conversation. But there’s there’s ways to to work through that. ⁓ political will on the side of ⁓ the management is is really important. and there’s tools. ⁓ laying out all those challenges as soon as they come around so they’re visible and agreed upon and accepted is key.

Riley Miller (09:58)
Folks are fairly entrenched, that can be a bit of difficult conversation. But there’s there’s ways to to work through that. political will on the side of the

Kevin VanderKley (10:15)
⁓ building your governance rules around how you’re gonna like before you even have those challenges, make some rules about how you’re gonna deal with those challenges. So when they come up, it’s not a scramble. It’s like, this fits into this process and we know how we’re gonna handle that and who we’re gonna bring to the table. And then the last piece is more tech tactical, just start a risk register. Let’s get get those things as they come up on a sheet, review that sheet regularly, and so they don’t fester ⁓ and and just deal with those problems as they come.

Riley Miller (10:21)
Make some rules about how you’re gonna deal with those challenges. So when they come up, it’s not a scramble, it’s like, this fits into this process.

So they don’t fancy.

Kevin VanderKley (10:45)
for those organizations that have done that, and I’ve been very fortunate to work with organizations that have done exactly that, ⁓ they have they have excellent results in terms of their business transformation.

Riley Miller (10:48)
organizations that have done that and I’ve been very fortunate to work with organizations that have done exactly that. ⁓ they have they

Yeah, absolutely. I think setting expectations is key. I’ve always been a proponent of ⁓ effective communication and if you’re able to get ahead of it, that definitely ensures a success. But there’s that other part too, where it not just necessarily managing expectations, but I know Al mentioned this too about an IT handoff and that’s when it becomes more or less a transformation and more of an install. based on your experience, have you seen that happen in real time or kind of shifted?

Kevin VanderKley (11:23)
Yeah, you can feel that happening when you’re on a project. There there’s a couple of signs that that the the project might be losing momentum or becoming less about business transformation and more tri transactional. ⁓ your meetings start becoming about milestones and go live dates instead of the people that you’re you know, the the transition of the work, the the training, the

Riley Miller (11:27)
Sign.

Kevin VanderKley (11:44)
benefits that it’s going to bring to the organization. Those become a kind of a sideline to the tactical tasks. Both are important, but when one starts overtaking the other, that’s a bit of a red flag. And then the conversation about outcomes lessons and you start being just talking about what you’re going to deliver next.

and the why you’re doing it can disappear. So one of the things that that I’d recommend is make sure the why stays visible because those are the things that align people on projects and align things moving forward. And if you keep that why visible, it keeps executive engaged and it keeps your people drop moving in the same direction.

Riley Miller (12:19)
a that’s a really good point about the the why. And I think I I’ve heard you say this before when when we’re talking about that why, but it I wanna hear you say it here. If a union lost its system tomorrow, would it survive on its people alone?

Kevin VanderKley (12:34)
Yeah, ⁓ well the union would survive. But yes, the union is bigger than any system. It’s about relationships, organizing history, the people that have been there for years, the ⁓ the the the overall labor movement, it’s big and and that doesn’t vanish overnight. What is challenging with you losing systems is your effectiveness just your effectiveness as a union, delivering the commitments that you have. ⁓ you know, on

the not only the commitments you have, but even something as recognition of revenue, dues revenue. if you have no systems to produce that, that can be very, very difficult to ⁓ to sustain. ⁓ so ⁓ I I think it becomes the discussions around systems in that sense aren’t about union identity. They’re about union enablement.

Riley Miller (13:11)
So I I think it becomes the discussions around systems in that sense aren’t about union identity. They’re about union enablement.

Kevin VanderKley (13:21)
redundancy recovery planning, you know, you’re not protecting software by doing that. You’re protecting your ability to function continuously. And that should never really be in question. You should make sure your software can do that at a minimum.

Riley Miller (13:22)
planning. When you’re not protecting software by doing that, you’re protecting your ability to function continuously. And that should never really be in question. You should make sure your software can do that

Yeah, and I think that ties back into ⁓ the members, which is obviously a third vector that we we haven’t really focused on too much this discussion. We’re focusing mostly on locals and ⁓ national level and managing those people expectations for change management. But coming back to the the core.

fundamental piece of of unions would be the the member portion. So I maybe I wanna get your insights on how has technology then changed ⁓ that side for for those individuals.

Kevin VanderKley (14:03)
Well, first off, members are why any of this matters. the the expectations of of everyday people are high. everybody shops or a lot of people shop at ⁓ at Amazon or they use Netflix and there’s a level of ⁓ usability that people are expecting. And there’s also a level of

expectation on what you know about a union individual. When you walk into a business or into a shop as an organizer and you go and talk to somebody, you’re generally sh you’re expected to kind of know well when they’re working, big thing and

Riley Miller (14:33)
kind of know well when they’re working, big

thing, what their name is, obviously, what their living situation is. But also you know do they have any grievances? Where are they on their dupes? And all those other different elements of business that you know have they participated in in ⁓ in rallies and are they you know strong proponents of of the union that what causes them that we decided. Those things should be at an organizer’s fingertips and a lot of them are but not everything. And if you can’t answer all those questions ⁓ then ⁓

Kevin VanderKley (14:35)
what their name is, obviously, where their living situation is, but also ⁓ you know, do they have any grievances? Where are they on their dues? And all those are the different elements of the business that, you know, have they participated in in in rallies? And are they, you know, strong proponents of of the union and then the causes that the union is fighting for? Those things should be at an organizer’s fingertips. And a lot of them are, but not everything. And if you can’t answer all those questions, ⁓ then you know

that the answers are all out there.

Riley Miller (15:02)
Yeah, but the answers are all

out there. It’s just about ⁓ bringing them absolutely. And ⁓ I think that i is the the separator piece though. The one that Al highlighted is unions are are definitely driven by their people and the ability to serve their their people. So I mean with that I’ll think it’s also yeah.

Kevin VanderKley (15:04)
It’s just about ⁓ putting bringing them together.

And I think it’s also well, I was just gonna say it’s

also important that you know, in in the the age of tech, my inbox fills up quick and it is you know, and and my my chats and my texts and everything, they come in at a rapid pace. So it’s important that your members don’t feel overwhelmed by communication and you find the right level and frequency of communication that works for them to get engaged in the most.

Riley Miller (15:42)
Yeah, that’s a big one too. Again, a a nice little call back to relevance that that Al was highlighting, but you don’t want it to turn into noise, otherwise you’re you’re a nuisance more than you are serving them. with that mindset then, and and this now going back to our leadership talk, that one

piece of advice along with many. If I was coming to you as a union leader and we’re looking to improve our systems and improve our organization, but I just don’t know where to get started or where to go, what ⁓ what guidance would you offer me?

Kevin VanderKley (16:10)
Yeah, I think if there was concern about where you were on the continuum and how big of a challenge that the a project like this will be, ⁓ I would say first look internally, find that one person or that small group of people that can answer those questions for you. Have a coffee and sit down with them, find out what they know, where the information lives, what breaks when they’re away ⁓ is a big thing. You know, how much vacation do they feel they can take? Because usually it’s not very much. ⁓

Riley Miller (16:12)
If there was ⁓ concern about where you

Kevin VanderKley (16:38)
And it’ll tell you more about your data situation than any technical assessment will, I think. ⁓ and then from there, you know, reach out to people you trust to get opinions. ⁓ there’s lots of people that have done this sort of ⁓ of work in terms of helping ⁓ organizations through these sorts of challenges. And but I’d first look internally and and and get a sense of of where you are.

Riley Miller (16:45)
There, you know, reach out to people you trust to get opinions. there’s lots of people that have done this sort of ⁓ terms in terms of helping organizations through these sorts of challenges. And but I first look internally and and and get a sense of ⁓ of

wonderfully said. I’m gonna be looking forward to ⁓ you stopping by my desk, my virtual desk with a coffee one of these days.

Kevin VanderKley (17:07)
For sure.

Riley Miller (17:08)
Thank you so much for your time, Kevin. ⁓ as as I’ve mentioned earlier, your font of knowledge and your experience in unions runs deep. I’m sure we’ll have plenty more conversations to be had in the future. It’s and really appreciate your time.

Kevin VanderKley (17:20)
thanks, Riley. I’m looking forward to

Riley Miller (17:21)
Alright, that’s a wrap. The Modern Membership Org podcast is all done. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again for Kevin jumping on board there to give us his insights into his union experience. If you like this podcast and you want to hear more like it, please feel free to subscribe on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon. We’re on all platforms and all places. if you would like to contribute and or like give us a suggestion on topics that you want us to hear, ⁓ want to hear us explore more.

Please feel free to reach out, info at burstingsilver.com or my name, Rmiller at burstingsilver.com. Happy to get that slated. And thanks again for listening. We’ll catch you on the next one.